And So I Go: Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow

>>A Discussion I had yesterday on US Wars: the why and wherefores. BB

Posted on: December 11, 2009

I had a discussion yesterday with a gentleman that started out as a commentary on President Obama’s Oslo speech and somehow morphed into the why and wherefores of our two active military engagements in the world.  I have long held these views,  but who am I to be reading tea leaves and stating what is on the minds of world leaders.  Well, I think we have all acknowledged that I am an opinionated old battle ax so here goes with my beliefs as to what is happening in the world and the role the United States is playing.

On Afghanistan/Pakistan:

You know I have never thought we needed to be in the snake pit of Afghanistan/Pakistan. NEVER. That area is living in the 5th. century and will never be brought into the modern world or understood by modern man. The tribes team up to beat every invader that has ever come into their territory, and then they split up again to continue fighting each other. The boy children have weapons placed in their hands as soon as they can hold them and the girl children are impregnated as soon as possible to give birth to more boy warriors. This is their culture; their only cultural belief is war and hate.

Yes, Pakistan and India have nuclear weapons, but I feel China and Russia will keep them under control if things begin to truly get out of control. China and Russia allowed India, Pakistan and North Korea to get nuclear weapons as a “poke in the eye” to the United States and Europe so now let them deal with their mistake. Russia knows they will be a primary target of the Pakistani Taliban if the terrorist ever get their hands on the weapons. There is much hate there. The same applies to China. The Taliban on the other hand really were not involved with the United States until we invaded their territory. For eight years Bush was just staying on in a holding pattern to keep al Qaeda in check and I believe the eventual intent was to pull out of the area all together.

The only thing Obama is achieving by escalating the war in this area is destroying the American military. Of course this is his goal because the military will be his ultimate foe when push comes to shove and it is a choice between defending the Constitution or defending Obama’s agenda of destroying the United States of America and handing our sovereignty over to the World Government.  DHS Sec. Napolitano was correct in warning against returning American soldiers as being a threat to Obama’s government because these soldiers will not stand by and allow the Constitution they have vowed to defend with their lives to be destroyed.

Now Iraq on the other hand was a necessary invasion. Not for the reason President Bush gave,  but because the world leaders knew Iran was going nuclear at a rapid pace and the United States needed troops  and the attendant military bases and hardware on the ground in that area to have a rapid response to Iran when the time came. Invading Iraq was the logical choice as Saddam was hated by all his neighbors and it was safe to invade with the approval, if not the support, of the other Arab states in the area.

Bush and Blair gave WMD’s as the reason for the invasion. And of course Saddam did have WMDs. He also had months in which to get them into Syrian hands, which is what he did. Why wasn’t the world told the truth about the invasion?

There would have been absolutely no support for the invasion if the truth had been told. After all the rest of the world leaders did not support the effort even knowing the danger of Iran and the need to be on hand in the area ready to take action, so how would Bush and Blair have gotten Congress and Parliament to agree by admitting the over all strategic necessity?  Witness the reluctance of the other world leaders to do anything about Iran even to this day.   It is  dangerous game the rest of the world is playing with Iran, but there again maybe not.  The rest of the world is simply going to rely upon the United States and Israel to take care of Iran and then they can all jump up in the United Nations and  make their hypocritical speeches about the war mongering followers of Satan that the United States and Israel are.  Disgusting I know, but we do have to share this planet with these soulless ones so we are forced to defend them.

Have you noticed that Obama who was so determined to take the troops out of Iraq before elected has had some hard truths brought home to him since and is following the Bush policy in the area?  BB


14 Responses to ">>A Discussion I had yesterday on US Wars: the why and wherefores. BB"

RE:Russia knows they will be a primary target of the Pakistani Taliban if the terrorist ever get their hands on the weapons.

I think you’re wrong on this one. The Taliban and Al Qaeda have already made several attempts at attacking nuke storage facilities. Once Al Qaeda get one or some, the targets will be Israel and the U.S. Their beef has nothing to do with Russia.

If the Taliban/Al Qaeda get close to these facilities, the US is poised to go in and secure them (take them).

Pakistan’s Nukes – Al-Qaeda’s Next Strategic Surprise?
http://defense-update.com/analysis/analysis_pakistan_240409.html

Have Pakistani Nuclear Facilities Already Been Attacked?
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/11/have-pakistani-nuclear-facilities-already-been-attacked/

Pakistan – Taliban Nuclear Nightmare
http://www.nationalterroralert.com

Just my opinion here Ben with no references as to any one else’s guessing.

I think you and others are wrong in lumping the Taliban and al Qaeda together. The Taliban is native to this area (Afghanistan/Pakistan) and Russia has been the natural enemy for centuries. They were not involved with or concerned with the United States until recently. In fact, the US was considered an ally since we gave them the weapons to fight and defeat Russia.

al Qaeda on the other hand and bin laden are Middle Eastern terrorists just using this very inaccessible area now as a hide out. al Qaeda would come after the United States but they are no over there in large enough numbers to take the weapons from the Taliban. The Taliban and al Qaeda are very uneasy allies right now, but there is no love lost between them. The Taliban war lords don’t like, and certainly don’t trust, bin Laden

al Qaeda is waiting for Iran to supply them with the weapons they want for an attack on the United States. Iran is primarily interested in going after Israel so they can claim to be the King of the Mountain among their neighbors. If they are permitted to take Israel out then I believe they will be content to “rule” the Middle East and share an uneasy peace with Russia and the United States as members of the Nuclear Club so even Iran may not be willing to start a war with the United States by giving al Qaeda nukes. I don’t believe the leadership of the Iranians, or for that matter any of the Arab or Muslim countries, have a particular hate for the United States; we are merely easy scapegoats to rile the mobs up from time to time. If they have a long standing dislike for anyone it is the Europeans who did so much to exploit the area earlier in the 20th century long before the United States became that involved.

You offer interesting sources. Thank you. What I think is lacking here however is the historical perspective. Analyst seem to forget the place history and tradition play in these primitive societies. Hatfields and McCoys in the 5th century Muslim world! No logic involved! Analyst tend to deal with the here and now.

Now step up to the plate and tell me what YOU think yourself without using some one else’s words and thoughts. You are well read so what have you put together yourself? BB

I believe most Americans don’t “get it” about Afghanistan and why we’re there. I know that the relationship between al Qaeda and the Taliban is cozier than you believe them to be. Their differences lie in ambitions. The Taliban want to govern Afghanistan again while al Qaeda wants a borderless, all-Muslim Middle East.

The Taliban was formed by the orphaned children of Russia’s involvement in Afghanistan. I know that during those early days of formation several Taliban leaders received funding from al Qaeda and wealthy Arabs which continues today.

Earlier this month Hillary Clinton acknowledged al Qaeda’s ambitions to gain access to Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal. I know too, that Iran has given safe haven to senior al Qaeda leadership and continues to supply them with funding and weapons.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has stated his desire to see Israel wiped off the map. I believe Iran will not hesitate to hand over a nuclear weapon to al Qaeda. That belief is reinforced by observing US policy against Iran’s nuclear ambitions as opposed to our behavior against North Korea’s program. But al Qaeda isn’t going doesn’t seem willing to wait while Iran develops their bomb, several years away from a test-detonation. This is demonstrated by the 3 attacks on Pakistan’s nuclear storage facilities since November 2007.

I believe Americans fail to accurately weigh the importance of containing Iran while also preventing al Qaeda from destabilizing Pakistan to make it easier to gain access to her nukes. It is why we are still in Afghanistan. It isn’t about bringing civilization to Afghanistan.

Pakistan’s future is tied to our success in totally destroying al Qaeda’s senior leadership (a drone got #3 today). The Taliban must also be destroyed to prevent destabilizing Afghanistan’s government.

Our future is contingent upon that success and is why I also believe we will be there in some manner for a long, long time. Indeed, we may never fully vacate the area.

Correction: My source about the Predator strike taking out #3 Al Qaeda member was wrong.

The senior terrorist operative killed in a drone strike Thursday in Pakistan was a top Al Qaeda planner involved in plotting attacks around the world. The official identified the operative as Saleh al-Somali , the network’s external operations chief for plots outside Afghanistan and Pakistan, saying there are “strong indications” al-Somali died.

“He was engaged in plotting throughout the world, which, given his role, probably included planning attacks against the United States and Europe, ” the official said. “He took strategic guidance from Al Qaeda’s top leadership and translated it into operational blueprints for prospective terrorist attacks.”

The official said al-Somali had numerous contacts, including connections to other Pakistani militant groups and Al Qaeda allies in East Africa like al-Shabaab.

The official said he served as part of Al Qaeda’s “senior leadership circle.”

“He had been active in Al Qaeda’s propaganda efforts for several years,” the official said.

The attack was part of the expanded use of Predator drones recently authorized by the White House, sources told Fox News, though the drone attacks, which began during the Bush Administration, never have been officially confirmed because of political sensitivity in Pakistan. Pakistan officially denied the latest attack.

Pakistani media reported that six militants were killed in the attack, including four foreign fighters — a term that typically refers to Al Qaeda.

Source:http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,580053,00.html

Ben: I know that the relationship between al Qaeda and the Taliban is cozier than you believe them to be. Their differences lie in ambitions. The Taliban want to govern Afghanistan again while al Qaeda wants a borderless, all-Muslim Middle East.

BB: i believe this is what I said Ben as far as the ambitions of the two are concerned. This is why I see their relationship now as one of an uneasy alliance. they not only have different ambitions their cultural outlook is as wide spread as 1500 years. al Qaeda does not even recruit among the Taliban or even the Afghani or Pakistani population because they are two entirely different people and mind sets. So I must continue to stand by my view unless you can give me more evidence that the fact that al Qaeda is hiding out in this most inaccessible area of the world and they do “loosely” share a religion.

Ben: The Taliban was formed by the orphaned children of Russia’s involvement in Afghanistan. I know that during those early days of formation several Taliban leaders received funding from al Qaeda and wealthy Arabs which continues today.

BB: The Taliban has been around for eons in one form or another. mainly they were outlaw groups who fought for their share of the pie from the established war lords. true that after the Russian aggression (20th Century) they became more focused and gained some “respectability” from the established war lords but not a great deal as these same war lords continue to fight them when not using them.

Ben: Iran develops their bomb, several years away from a test-detonation.

BB: Fantasy thinking Ben. Pure fantasy and wishful thinking. If this were the case Israel would not be gearing their nation up for a nuclear strike. Israel KNOWS what is going on and the leaders do not arose their people unncessisarily or the nation would be in a constant state of disruption. Israel i9s wide awake and preparing NOW. By the way, I certainly wish you were right about this! 🙂

Ben: Pakistan’s future is tied to our success in totally destroying al Qaeda’s senior leadership (a drone got #3 today). The Taliban must also be destroyed to prevent destabilizing Afghanistan’s government.

BB: Now this statement is true. But I still contend that china and Russia will not allow the Taliban or al Qeada to get the nukes. And for their own protection not our desires. Fact is, we Americans have absolutely no reason to be in the area and I believe the Russians and Chinese are happy as Hell that American lives are being given to protect their interests. We American have played this game before. Somehow our leaders convince the people that we are the only ones who can “save the world” and we go in and throw away our young men’s lives on other countries causes. We seem never to learn from our past mistakes!

Ben: Our future is contingent upon that success and is why I also believe we will be there in some manner for a long, long time. Indeed, we may never fully vacate the area.

BB:: Sorry Ben but this is an old, old alibi for sticking our noses in where we are not wanted. Eisenhower warned us against the industrial/military complex and we have let them run our foreign policy now for half a century. It is all for money. Purely and simply: money.

How do I know this? Because the same damnable argument was used for Vietnam! And the very same words and prediction for longevity, I might add.
Well we were finally driven out of Vietnam after 57000 American men and women died over there and many in that generation of returning young men were scarred beyond any meaningful life. We left and the whole world did not fall to communism! In fact, not really even the entire area fell to communism, and just 40 years later the area is quite content with their arrangements and individual governments. Most in fact are prospering and all without American involvement in “saving” them. The prosperity and peace comes instead from non-violent American trade. You see when people are business partners and one hand is washing the other for the prosperity of both then they don’t need to kill off their young so the old men can get rich.

I don’t trust the federal government Ben. They have always and will ever lie to the people for money and power our leaders in every decade garner from the telling of these self-promoting lies. (Look closely at the lies being told today!) Don’t buy into them. Look closely at the past as history does indeed repeat itself unless wise men decide to stop the cycle. In this case it is the oft repeated cycle of war in foreign lands to “protect American interests” and “save the world” from some terrible enemy. BB

Reggie, where is the link? BB

Reggie, so sorry about this first message. am seeming to be having some difficulty with Road Runner today as I did not at first pick up the link you left.

Yes! I am familiar with James Scott’s work on the area he calls Zomia. Didn’t read the book but have read several articles by him and about his work by others. I found his analysis of the culture so in keeping with previous information I had gathered about the people/culture. I shorten my description of the area of Afghanistan/Pakistan as a snake pit, but if pressed to elaborate I would use many of the terms Scott uses to describe the people.
Scott says, “In Zomia’s small societies, with their simple technologies, anti-authoritarian tendencies, and oral cultures, Scott sees not a world forgotten by civilization, but one that has been deliberately constructed to keep the state at arm’s length. Zomia’s history, Scott argues, is a rejection of the mighty lowland states that are seen as defining Asia. He calls Zomia a “shatter zone,” a place where people go to escape the raw deal that complex civilization historically has been for those at the bottom: the coerced labor and conscription into military service, the taxation for wars and pharaonic building projects, the epidemic diseases that came with intensive agriculture and animal husbandry.”

In the main I do agree. They are an independent people who have rejecterd the governance of a state and faceless government officials who are removed from them. They do however allow themselves to be governed by war lords but only to an extent. Our own Native Americans are a perfect match for these cultures of Zomia. The one difference is that of religion. Where Islam became the religion of this region it is the extremes and violence of Islam that they adhere to the closest with no moderation that those cultures that have come into contact with other belief systems are likely to accept. Which in my opinion makes the term I have applied as far as the United States trying to deal with them apt. Afghanistan/Pakistan has ever been and will remain a snake pit for any outsider who comes into their region. And we do not belong there. We can not succeed where Russia, China and even the great Khan failed.

thank you for the reference. BB

When I said several years, I was thinking in the range of 3-4 years.

From April 2009 NPR article:

The U.S. intelligence community believes that if Iran’s leaders decided they want a nuclear weapons capability, it would all be done in secret. They would build a secret centrifuge facility and use a separate supply of natural uranium to make low-enriched uranium and then further enrich it to bomb grade in secret. That could very well take four years or more.

Source:http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112109445

This gives enough time for the US to develop, test, and field four “Massive Ordinance Penetrator (MOP) weapons.
http://rightamerican.wordpress.com/2009/10/07/will-usaf-drop-calling-card-upon-iran-nuke-facilities/

From August 2009 Article

Iran is unlikely to be able to produce the highly enriched uranium (HEU) necessary for a nuclear weapon until at least 2013, according to a U.S. government intelligence estimate made public Thursday.

Source: http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=48005

From Council of Foreign Relations (Feeds State Department with policy information)

“We judge with moderate confidence that the earliest possible date Iran would be technically capable of producing enough HEU for a weapon is late 2009, but that this is very unlikely. We judge with moderate confidence Iran probably would be technically capable of producing enough HEU for a weapon sometime during the 2010-2015 time frame. (INR judges Iran is unlikely to achieve this capability before 2013 because of foreseeable technical and programmatic problems.) All agencies recognize the possibility that this capability may not be attained until after 2015.”

RE:Sorry Ben but this is an old, old alibi for sticking our noses in where we are not wanted. Eisenhower warned us against the industrial/military complex and we have let them run our foreign policy now for half a century. It is all for money. Purely and simply: money.

My comment is not just opinion, as yours is. Mine is based upon many hours of reading relevant articles on the topic. Respectfully, your comment serves to make my point that most Americans don’t “get it”. Your view is based upon past experience and cliche’s. Your comment can be applied to any given conflict and suggests we can never be right about defending this country.

I’m not willing to wait for a nuke det. in one of our cities for my point to be proven.

No Ben, you comments are not data at all but opinions of other people! My opinion like yours is also based on my hours and many YEARS studying current events, scientific data and especially history.

And I feel your comments support MY notion that some Americans just don’t “get it”. So tell me how many American troops have to die in Afghanistan/Pakistan before we like the Russians and the Chinese and the Mongols before us all left with their tails between their legs?

I find it strange that you feel so little concern for Iran. In fact you pass them off as being irrelevant , at least at the present time. You also make no mention of my assessment of our involvement with Iraq. Maybe you can explain to me why Obama who campaigned on ending George Bush’s War is still in Iran if Iran is no threat.

Oh well. I could come up with articles that contradict all of these Ben. But I won’t because as I said I am putting my money on the best intelligence in the world: the Israelis. Their very lives depend upon their being right. They are gearing their population up RIGHT NOW for an attack from Iran. Sorry. I must stay with my gut and my own assessment based on 50 years of watching world history first hand.

Hey! This has been fun! Sorry we must agree to disagree, but if you are ever in Greensboro NC I would love to discuss this or anything else with you over a cup of coffee. Sincerely, Brenda Bowers

Oh . I wish you had your own blog so I could get a better idea of where you are coming from and what you really know and believe. Reading blogs by other people over time gives you a better sense of where they are coming from so you can assess their comments based on understanding of their views on other issues. So many people who only comment have so much to offer and I truly think you are one of these people. Hope you will consider starting your own blog and getting into the frying pan with the rest of us.🙂 It can be a lot of fun but also requires a lot of time and work because you have to keep on top of what you are saying or someone will most certainly call you out. This is why when I am spouting off my own opinion I make really sure to state it is my own opinion.

Anyhow, do consider becoming a blogger. Okay? Then be sure and get your url to me! I promise to become a reader. BB

B – I think my previous comment about my blogs was lost – maybe waiting moderation – don’t know. If so, then the following is redundant and can/should be deleted. This time I’ll pay attention when I submit to see if there is a message about moderation.

You can click on my picture where it will take you to Right American, my primary blog.

I have 2 other active blogs:

Our Obama Nation
http://ourobamanation.wordpress.com/

On Islamic Fascism
http://onislamicfascism.wordpress.com/

I contribute to:
Political Inquirer
http://politicalinquirer.com/

An American Idiot
http://anamericanidiot.net/

Background and influences:
I was born into the Air Force. My father was an officer. Pilot training at now closed Malden AFB in Missouri and then to Williams AFB in AZ for jet flight training. He went into the active reserves and called up due to Cuban Missile Crisis and stayed in i.e. “Lifer”. Air Force then moved him into Air Defense and served in a few now obsolete SAGE units around the States. Served 1 tour in S. Korea and 1 tour in Vietnam where he flew ABCCC missions in EC-130s stationed at Udorn, Thailand. I’ve lived, well, almost everywhere.

I had countless conversations with him about the U.S., politics, foreign policy, and relationships between the military, government, diplomats, Israel, the Middle East, Japan, etc. Above all, he taught me to keep an open mind but not so open that my brains fall out. He’s responsible for teaching me about the art of subversion and what it’s doing on our college campuses. It’s why we have Obama in office today.

Ben, I seem to be having some problems today because no I did not get your comment about your blogs and neither do I have limits to access to my blog post or comments. My feeling is that by putting my posts out there I am asking people to comment, and these comments should be unrestricted with the two exceptions being a show of some level of intelligent commentary and common courtesy. I think in the past 5 years of blogging I have only felt the need to delete a comment four or five times.

I also got nothing when I cursored over your name so I could access your blog which led me to believe you had no blog. Sorry that I haven’t been a reader before this.

You have probably noticed that I post on particular news articles with limited personal commentary. This form of blogging came about only since the summer of 2008 when I became very upset with the way the main stream media was failing in its vetting of the candidate Obama. I made it my mission at that point to offer my readers the most accurate information I could find that was not being covered by the MSM. I also only report a story when I can verify the facts with at a minimum three other sources. I have continued this mission as the Obama Administration carries out its agenda of destroying the United States. Before that time my posts were mainly commentaries on a variety of subjects.

Now I only occasionally lapse back into the format of “the opinionated old Broad”! I do love dialog and have been a voracious reader for at least 60 of my 68 years, but I tend to respect no one else’s opinion as gospel. I will give all information due consideration and analysis, judging it thru the prism of my store of knowledge. I may or may not then change my understanding of a given subject. But, it is always and ever my opinions and background knowledge that is given the most weight. Perhaps having been subjected to too much utter nonsense or even outright lies (Climategate) by the so-called “experts”. Perhaps some of my cynicism for “expert” opinion has to do with my work background where my colleagues were these same “experts” who wrote the books and articles while never having gotten their feet muddy in the trenches or classrooms or even on the streets.

I will put yours on my “blogs to read” list and will visit probably twice a week as I have too long a list to visit daily. Sincerely, and it has been enjoyable. Brenda Bowers

Thanks.

My primary blog on general political topics:

From The Right
http://rightamerican.wordpress.com/

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